“There really is no more beautiful thought in all reality than the thought of God. I believe that theology is ultimately just that: thinking the thought of God and worshipping the Reality who is God.” (Katherine Sonderegger) In this conversation, Katherine Sonderegger joins Matt Croasmun to discuss the importance of a free and unapologetic, unembarrassed approach to Christian theology; the interplay of Christian theology with other religious texts and pluralistic perspectives; the practice of peace, listening, and being knit together even in difference; the strong unity and center of theology, which is the capital-R Reality that is God, who is, in Sonderegger's words, "the great hope of theology."
What is the future of theology? We asked that question of several leading theologians 7 years ago, including today's featured guest, Katherine Sonderegger, The William Meade Chair of Systematic Theology at Virginia Theological Seminary, a priest in the Episcopal Church, and has written widely, covering Creation, Christology, Election, the Jewishness of Jesus...
Her approach to theology is beautifully summed up in the following, “There really is no more beautiful thought in all reality than the thought of God. I believe that theology is ultimately just that: thinking the thought of God and worshipping the Reality who is God.”
In this conversation, Katherine Sonderegger joins Matt Croasmun to discuss the importance of a free and unapologetic, unembarrassed approach to Christian theology; the interplay of Christian theology with other religious texts and pluralistic perspectives; the practice of peace, listening, and being knit together even in difference; the strong unity and center of theology, which is the capital-R Reality that is God, who is, in Sonderegger's words, "the great hope of theology."
Show Notes
About Katherine Sonderegger
Katherine Sonderegger is The William Meade Chair of Systematic Theology at Virginia Theological Seminary. She joined the VTS faculty in 2002, after fifteen years as a professor of religion at Middlebury College. Her academic career began at Smith College, where she undertook interdisciplinary research in medieval studies. Her priestly vocation began at Yale Divinity School, where she completed her M.Div. and STM degrees, writing a thesis on feminist theology. The first years after graduation brought her to congregational ministry and chaplaincy training at Yale New Haven Hospital. Raised a Presbyterian, the Reformed roots run deep in her vocation. She brought these into the Episcopal Church when she was ordained deacon and priest in 2000.
Twin topics have characterized her academic career: the dogmatic theology of Karl Barth and constructive work in systematic theology. She has published in several areas of Barth studies, from Barth’s interpretation of Israel, Jews, and Judaism, to his Doctrine of God, his Christology, and his remarkable exegesis of Scripture. More recently, Sonderegger has turned to constructive theology, writing shorter works on the Doctrines of Election, Creation, and Christology, and launching a new systematics. Volume 1: The Doctrine of God appeared under the aegis of Fortress Press in 2015, and Volume 2: The Trinity: Processions and Persons was published in 2020. She is currently working on Volume 3: Divine Missions, Christology, and Pneumatology.
Sonderegger is also the author of That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew: Karl Barth’s “Doctrine of Israel” (University Park: Penn State Press, 1992) and coauthor, with artist Margaret Adams Parker, of Praying the Stations of the Cross: Finding Hope in a Weary Land (Wm. Eerdmans Press, 2019).
Production Notes
Evan Rosa: For the Life of the World is a production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture. Visit us online at faith.yale.edu.
Katherine Sonderegger: I don't think that scripture, the prophets, or Christ Himself hesitate to speak about the glory, mystery and being of God. I would want to see theology losing itself in that ocean of reality. And, thinking of that as the sanctification of thought, to think this thought. So it's going to have things to say about the world and about human flourishing and about a just society and about the relation of human beings, the love of neighbor. But I think that it has that in virtue of this focus on the superabundant being of God.
Evan Rosa: This is For the Life of the World, a podcast about seeking and living a life worthy of our humanity. I'm Evan Rosa, with the Yale Center for Faith & Culture. What is the future of theology? We asked that question of several leading theologians about seven years ago, including today's featured guest, Katherine Sonderegger, the William Meade Chair of Systematic Theology at Virginia Theological Seminary.
A priest in the Episcopal Church and a theologian who's written very widely covering the doctrine of God, creation, Christology, election, the Jewishness of Jesus, her approach to theology is beautifully summed up in the following: "There really is no more beautiful thought in all reality than the thought of God."
I believe that theology is ultimately just that thinking the thought of God and worshiping the reality who is God. In this conversation, Matt Croasmun and Katherine Sonderegger discuss the importance of a free and unapologetic, unembarrassed approach to Christian theology, the interplay of Christian theology with other religious texts and pluralistic perspectives, the practice of peace listening and being knit together, even in difference, and the strong unity and center of theology, which is the capital-R "Reality" that is God, who is, in Sonderegger's words, "the great hope of theology." Thanks for listening.
Matthew Croasmun: What's right with theology these days, as you see it?
Katherine Sonderegger: I think one of the things that's really wonderful is seeing people starting to take up doctrine and to do it in a straightforward and unembarrassed way. To simply explore Christology or Providence or the doctrine of God, and not spend all the time in an elaborate throat-clearing and worrying about various hermeneutical issues, but actually taking up and reading.
And I think a sign of that is that there are a number of people working on major dogmatic and systematic projects. Katherine Tanner, Sarah Coakley. It's lovely to see women taking up that task. We can see important theologies coming out of liberal trajectories. Brian Garish's single volume. And of course, all of us were eagerly awaiting John Webster's work. And may he be in grace and glory now, learning this great systematic work. But he left behind a legacy of shorter dogmatic studies that are promises of systematic work itself. And that's really a lovely gift. And it tells me that after the passing of that great generation of Rahner, Balthasar, and Barth, that we're seeing this next generation now. Elizabeth Johnson's work, I think, just started us on this path of being willing to say, "Yes, let's take up the major loci and speak a theological word out of our generation."
Matthew Croasmun: Of course, you have, in your own work, dared to venture in this direction as well. So we should mention that for sure. What is it that gives you pause, when you think about the state of the field, the institutions we're a part of? When you think about theology, are there things to be concerned about with the present state of the field?
Katherine Sonderegger: I mean, aside from just human frailty, and ignorance, there is still worry about speaking directly out of the church in a free and unembarrassed way. That there's still some hesitation about that. There's still that war of the schools. So the relationship between New Testament and Old Testament studies and theology is still a very tender one. Think. There are some places where they're meshing and I have colleagues at Virginia Seminary, Kathy Grieb is one, Judy Fentress-Williams, another, who are theologians reading these texts. But still we see that higher critical divide and we have gotten through the 19th century. And I think of course in the major universities, it is an odd thing to be a religious person.
I think this is a sad moment for me in the history of intellectual life. It's sad to think that the great humanistic fields that have grown up out of a religious milieu now can see no further than this life of ours, this short, frail life and this world, perhaps even this economy, this intellectual realm. It makes the tie with the past very tenuous. And makes a sense of transcendence and exploration depth in life so difficult to explore.
Matthew Croasmun: You mentioned a sort of hesitancy that can pop up to speak unapologetically from within the church. Some of that, it seems to me is due to the fact that we're quite aware that not all peoples speak from that sort of place, and that there is a new challenge in an increasingly pluralistic context to know how to speak from a location. How ought we think about theology's relationship to this broader pluralistic moment?
Katherine Sonderegger: Oh, I have been all my life struck by the conflicted and rich and very deep relation between Christianity and Judaism. And I suppose I see all of these questions through that conviction. I don't think it's possible to be a Christian theologian, to be a Christian and not hear the faith that witnessed the obedience of Judaism. And it's in a Judaic reading of scripture that I can receive my own reading of the holy scripture. And I've tried to learn a bit more about Islam as I've become more and more convicted that this also is a central question for us and certainly an important, essential, political, moral question.
But religiously, to find ourselves as Christians between Judaism and Islam, I think, is deeply instructive for me as a Christian. So to see the way a tradition, that from my perspective, follows mine, takes up some of the same figures so that they are friends. And they're speaking about the central religious gifts of my tradition, but in a way that is not entirely familiar.
And that helps me see what is central to me as a Christian. How is it that, say, in Islam, the focus on the nativity, and the way in which Mary is spoken of there. And then of course the famous case of the death of Jesus. How can that raise questions about just what the passion of our Lord is all about?
For me reading those texts, the Quranic texts, reading the various schools of interpretation about the death of Jesus, the spiritual and moral questions that are raised, echos some of the questions that Anselm has raised, questions that womanist and feminist theologians have raised, but in a different context and to a different end. I find that deeply instructive and illuminating. And my hope, my prayer, is that as we continue that kind of discussion with Jews and Muslims, that the broader world, the secular world, could hear religion as deep practice of peace, of listening, of respect, of being knit together in difference. And that seems to me, a corrective of what religions sometimes are-- this source of condemnation and disagreement and fundamental rupture. That, that is my prayer for that conversation.
Matthew Croasmun: That's moving to hear you talk about the kind of theological project that Christians, Jews, and Muslims share. Is there a shared, is there a shared project that Christians or the religious have with the non-religious?
We all need to figure out what it means to live a good life, a flourishing life. Do you see hope there for a kind of shared... Seems like that's one of the things that really bridges that divide, it's not just that I'm speaking at you, you're speaking to me, but we have a shared project together. And it's something, not to instrumentalize theology and turn it into merely ethics, but is that, is this kind of question, of the good life or the flourishing life, is that a potential meeting place? Certainly that I think still among religious people, different people of different religious faiths, but also across for the religious and non-religious divide?
Katherine Sonderegger: I do think there are ties between religion and Christian faith and the secular realm. I'm not someone predisposed to think the Enlightenment is a great tragedy and a terrible development in the history of humanistic thought. I worry sometimes about the way in which Christians can attempt to move back and around, behind the Enlightenment as though there was no benefit of the Enlightenment, of the attempt to raise, before our eyes, what we must do and what we can hope for.
And I take the document that we're reading together, I take that document to propose a way of common searching after wisdom. And that I think is a deep hunger among cultures and peoples, certainly historically, but I think in the present day as well. And so these questions emerge in this broad way in the Enlightenment and it seems to me that religious people can bring our own reflections on wisdom as well as folly and bring those into this conversation.
Matthew Croasmun: You quite helpfully point us to a couple of thinkers. You talked about Thomas Aquinas so I'll start with Aquinas. He says that the object of theology, or what theology is about, is "God and all things in relation to God." And you asked the question, in saying that, either for Thomas, maybe it's clear for Thomas what he means, but if we were to follow after him, what would we mean?
Do we mean one thing by that? Or do we mean two things by that? God and all things in relation to God-- one thing. Or is it God--one--and, all things in relation to God--two? I'll turn it back on you, what do you think? What is the... what is it that theology is about, because there can be this tendency, in modern theology in particular, to maybe even reduce itself in the extreme to only all things in relation to God. I said only ethics or something like that. So how do we hold that tension?
Katherine Sonderegger: Well, I'm someone who is persuaded that theology has a center and a single center. I think the Greek root of theology, it best captures this. That theology is about God. Thinking the sublime thought of God. So I think theology has a strong unity and center. And that everything is held in relation to this center.
And I think it is possible from God's own goodness to speak of God's own aseity. So I'm not an anti-speculative person in theology. I think theology is to explore the being of God. And I think when Thomas speaks about speculative metaphysics, I think we should feel emboldened and instructed to pursue that and to intellectually worship God in this way.
Now I think that stands at some distance from many other modern convictions about theology. And of course there are lots of epistemic and historic reasons for thinking that theology doesn't have a center. It's not unified, perhaps has two centers, or is a broken relationship that it has to emerge out of the creaturely realm, and seek the eternal as the eternal turns toward the creation.
But I don't think in fact, Holy Scripture speaks in this way. I don't think that scripture, the prophets or Christ Himself hesitate to speak about the glory and mystery and being of God. And I think scripture fundamentally is about God. I would want to see theology losing itself in that ocean of reality.
And thinking of that as the sanctification of thought, to think this thought. Now I think that of course is going to have all things in relation to Him. So it's going to have things to say about the world and about human flourishing and about a just society and about the relation of human beings, the love of neighbor. But I think it has that in virtue of this focus on the super abundant being of God.
Matthew Croasmun: It's helpful to a point to scripture and talk about the double command. Is that command one command or two commands? It struck me, as I'm a Paul scholar by training, that Paul is willing to say that's just one command, but the, but he would, it seemed, to advocate that, at least not, maybe, he would say that you could summarize the double command with either half of it as it were.
The one that we have in Galatians is the whole law summed up in loving your neighbor. And then love of neighbor can actually, that gives me hope that perhaps one could sum up the whole, either side as it were. And we could begin with concern for neighbor and just as it's impossible to love God without loving neighbor, it's impossible to love neighbor without thereby loving God.
How do we think about this?
Katherine Sonderegger: I've always read Paul's there as having something like the two tablets of the law in mind. I can be better instructed on that. I had taken him to be saying that the second tablet of the law can be summed up in love of neighbor in the way that Gamaliel had summed up the law as standing on one foot.
I take that to be a summing up of all the commandments that have to do with the neighbor, the resident alien, in trade, in Sabbath keeping, but that the first tablet is not comprised in that way, but that the second tablet depends on the first. But I think that this is Rahner's deep conviction, and I think it's a particularly beautiful one.
His conviction that those who follow their conscience and, in implicit faith, love the neighbor with self-giving in this way, love God. That's a move of genius and it's a particularly beautiful conviction and expression.
Matthew Croasmun: Mistaken though it might be.
Katherine Sonderegger: Yeah. I just, I think what I would like to see instead is that the love of God is the summary of the love of neighbor.
I'm more Augustinian there: to love God and do what you will, I think, is closer to my understanding of a single center. Yeah.
Matthew Croasmun: If we were, thinking about the various kinds of things, we've talked about the state of the field, this discipline we're engaged in, and the institutions we're engaged in, and the situation that we operate in in theology-- if we think about the future of the field, what gives you cause for hope? I suppose we have to hope in God for the future of theology. What gives you hope for the future of theology as we go forward in this sort of shared endeavor?
Katherine Sonderegger: Well, certainly I agree with you that God is the great hope of theology. Christ is not without his witnesses. I think this is what we have to say over and over, and to not weary of saying it, that the hope of our kind, and the hope of theology, the hope of this world, is God. And it will be an unfolding of God's own will, I think, to see what is going to happen with indifference to religion, secularism, the state of the church, of seminaries.
I think already God is preparing what that future will be and that it will be one that we can hope in. That's the foundation, I think. But I think the second is like unto it. Every year at commencement, I tell my friends, "Look at these graduates," coming out of my seminary, and of course, from Yale Divinity, and from seminaries across the country. And I am filled with hope. I have had a chance to teach them, to greet their work, to worship with them, to hear them preach. And I think there's great faithfulness here and great commitment to the gospel. And if it is of God, it cannot fail.
Evan Rosa: For the Life of the World is a production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School. This episode featured theologian, Katherine Sonderegger, and biblical scholar Matthew Croasmun. Production and editorial assistance by Nathan Jowers. I'm Evan Rosa, and I edit and produce the show.
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