Is technology the source or salve of social isolation? Given the realities of increasing division, the epidemic of loneliness, and unwanted isolation today, how should we think about the theological, ethical, and spiritual dimensions of the human experience of aloneness? “AI technologies aren’t capable of creating conditions in which grace can happen—it’s endemic to personhood.” This episode is part 3 of a 5-part series, SOLO, which explores the theological, moral, and psychological dimensions of loneliness, solitude, and being alone. In this episode, sociologist Felicia Wu Song joins Macie Bridge to discuss the sociology of solitude, loneliness, and isolation, framed by today’s most pressing technological challenges. Drawing from her work on digital culture and AI, Song distinguishes between isolation, loneliness, and generative solitude—what she calls “positive aloneness.” She explores how technology both connects and disconnects us, what’s lost when care becomes automated, and why the human face-to-face encounter remains vital for grace and dignity. Together they consider the allure of AI companionship, the “better-than-nothing” argument, and the church’s local, embodied role in a digitized age. Song invites listeners to rediscover curiosity, self-reflection, and the spiritual discipline of solitude as essential practices for recovering our humanity amid the noise of the crowd. Helpful Links and Resources * Felicia Wu Song, Restless Devices: Recovering Personhood, Presence, and Place in the Digital Age — [https://www.ivpress.com/restless-devices](https://www.ivpress.com/restless-devices) * Allison Pugh, The Last Human Job: The Work of Connecting in a Disconnected World — [https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691240817/the-last-human-job](https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691240817/the-last-human-job) * David Whyte, “Solace: The Art of Asking the Beautiful Question” — [https://www.amazon.com/Solace-Art-Asking-Beautiful-Question/dp/1932887377](https://www.amazon.com/Solace-Art-Asking-Beautiful-Question/dp/1932887377) * Sherry Turkle, Alone Together: Why We Expect More from Technology and Less from Each Other — [https://www.sherryturkle.com/alone-together](https://www.sherryturkle.com/alone-together) Episode Highlights 1. “Even though I study technology, I’m really interested in what it means to be human.” 2. “What happens when we have technologies that always bring the crowd? The crowd is always with us all the time.” 3. “Loneliness is the gap between what I think I should have and what I actually have.” 4. “AI technologies aren’t capable of creating conditions in which grace can happen—it’s endemic to personhood.” 5. “We should cut ourselves a lot of slack. Feeling lonely is very human. It doesn’t mean something’s wrong with me.” About Felicia Wu Song Felicia Wu Song is a sociologist, writer, and speaker, and was Professor of Sociology at Westmont College for many years. She is author of Restless Devices: Recovering Personhood, Presence, and Place in the Digital Age. Her research examines digital technology, culture, and Christian formation, exploring how contemporary media ecosystems shape our social and spiritual lives. Learn more about her work at [https://feliciawusong.com/](https://feliciawusong.com/) Show Notes Technology, Humanity, and Solitude * Song describes her sociological work at the intersection of culture, technology, and spirituality. * She reflects on how technology reshapes our sense of identity, community, and human meaning. * “Even though I study technology, I’m really interested in what it means to be human.” * The question of loneliness emerges from the expectation of constant accessibility and permanent connection. The Crowd Is Always With Us * “What happens when we have technologies that always bring the crowd?” * Song critiques how digital connectivity erases silence and solitude, making stillness feel uncomfortable. * Explores the challenge of practicing ancient spiritual disciplines like silence in the digital age. Connection and Disconnection * Song traces the historical celebration of communication technology’s power to transcend time and space. * Notes the danger of normalizing constant connectivity: “If you can do it, you should do it.” * Examines how connection can become a cultural norm that stigmatizes solitude. Defining Loneliness, Isolation, and Solitude * “Social isolation is objective; loneliness is subjective; solitude is generative.” * Distinguishes “positive aloneness” as a space for self-conversation and divine encounter. * References David Whyte and the Desert Fathers and Mothers as guides to solitude. Youth, Boredom, and the Portal of Loneliness * Discusses the value of “episodic loneliness” as a portal to self-discovery and spiritual growth. * Connects solitude to creativity and reflection through the “boredom literature.” AI, Care, and the Better-Than-Nothing Argument * Examines the emergence of AI chatbots and companionship tools. * Engages Allison Pugh’s critique of “the better-than-nothing argument.” * “It sounds altruistic, but it actually leads to deeper and deeper inequality.” * Raises justice and resource questions around replacing human teachers and therapists with chatbots. The Limits of Machine Grace * “AI technologies aren’t capable of creating conditions in which grace can happen—it’s endemic to personhood.” * Explores embodiment, dignity, and the irreplaceable value of human presence. * Critiques the assumption that “being seen” by a machine equates to being known by a person. AI, Divinity, and Projection * Notes human tendency to attribute divine or human qualities to machines. * References Sherry Turkle’s early studies on human-computer relationships. * “We are so relational that we’ll even take a clunky computer program and give it human-like qualities.” Faith, Solitude, and Social Conditions * Song emphasizes the sociological dimension: environments shape human flourishing. * “Let’s not make it so hard for people to experience solitude.” * Advocates for embodied, place-based communities as antidotes to digital disembodiment. Loneliness, Curiosity, and Grace * Encourages gentleness toward oneself in moments of loneliness. * “Feeling lonely is very human. It doesn’t mean something’s wrong with me.” * Promotes curiosity and acceptance as pathways to spiritual and personal growth. Production Notes * This podcast featured Felicia Wu Song * Edited and Produced by Evan Rosa * Hosted by Evan Rosa * Production Assistance by Hope Chun, Alexa Rollow, and Emily Brookfield * A Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School — [https://faith.yale.edu/about](https://faith.yale.edu/about) * Support For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture — [https://faith.yale.edu/give](https://faith.yale.edu/give)
Is technology the source or salve of social isolation? Given the realities of increasing division, the epidemic of loneliness, and unwanted isolation today, how should we think about the theological, ethical, and spiritual dimensions of the human experience of aloneness?
“AI technologies aren’t capable of creating conditions in which grace can happen—it’s endemic to personhood.”
This episode is part 3 of a 5-part series, SOLO, which explores the theological, moral, and psychological dimensions of loneliness, solitude, and being alone.
In this episode, sociologist Felicia Wu Song joins Macie Bridge to discuss the sociology of solitude, loneliness, and isolation, framed by today’s most pressing technological challenges.
Drawing from her work on digital culture and AI, Song distinguishes between isolation, loneliness, and generative solitude—what she calls “positive aloneness.” She explores how technology both connects and disconnects us, what’s lost when care becomes automated, and why the human face-to-face encounter remains vital for grace and dignity. Together they consider the allure of AI companionship, the “better-than-nothing” argument, and the church’s local, embodied role in a digitized age. Song invites listeners to rediscover curiosity, self-reflection, and the spiritual discipline of solitude as essential practices for recovering our humanity amid the noise of the crowd.
Helpful Links and Resources
Episode Highlights
About Felicia Wu Song
Felicia Wu Song is a sociologist, writer, and speaker, and was Professor of Sociology at Westmont College for many years. She is author of Restless Devices: Recovering Personhood, Presence, and Place in the Digital Age. Her research examines digital technology, culture, and Christian formation, exploring how contemporary media ecosystems shape our social and spiritual lives. Learn more about her work at https://feliciawusong.com/
Show Notes
Technology, Humanity, and Solitude
The Crowd Is Always With Us
Connection and Disconnection
Defining Loneliness, Isolation, and Solitude
Youth, Boredom, and the Portal of Loneliness
AI, Care, and the Better-Than-Nothing Argument
The Limits of Machine Grace
AI, Divinity, and Projection
Faith, Solitude, and Social Conditions
Loneliness, Curiosity, and Grace
Production Notes
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors.
Evan Rosa: From the Yale Center For Faith and Culture, this is for the life of the world, a podcast about seeking and living a life worthy of our humanity.
Felicia Wu Song: The disciplines of solitude and silence have always been challenging for people through the ages for various reasons, but wondering if in these days, in our times, as we are being formed by these technologies. Certain aspects of God's nature become actually more difficult also for us to access or to experience because it might feel incredibly uncomfortable for us.
We are unaccustomed to God's silence or. God's stillness because we are a people on the move. Always getting content, always getting some kind of feedback from someone immediately. Right. And so what happens then with our interior spirituality? You know, like the shape of our souls.
So much of the AI argument assumes that people just wanna be seen, which again, sounds really compelling. You're like, yeah, people. Just wanna be seen. Listen to her. And she's like, no, no, no. What human beings actually want is they wanna be seen by another human being. Why? Because that human being creates risk for them.
That human being could judge them. Could. Dismiss them. Could say, forget you. You know, like you're hopeless. It's at risk. But when that human being listens and takes in and actually says, I cherish your Divinity. I cherish your life experience. You are worthy of my time. Even despite whatever has just been said, that that's the piece of it that we want as human beings, not merely that someone's just gonna risk.
See, that's incredible insight into a humanness. But for those who are Christians, I think that's also insight into what Grace is. It's like, oh, that's Grace. That's like, that's, that's what it is. Right? And. So, and, and that's what everybody is longing for in the end. And in that sense, AI technologies aren't capable of creating conditions in which grace can happen.
It's endemic. To personhood.
Macie Bridge: I'm Macie Bridge with the Yale Center For Faith and Culture, and this is solo, a series on solitude, loneliness, and being alone.
If you are listening to this episode right now, you are probably using a smartphone or maybe a computer. I recorded this episode using a microphone and a computer loaded up with multiple types of software and web platforms. It's really something incredible though you and I have probably never been in the same room as.
One another. We're able to share this wonderful learning experience together. I think this is delightful and kind of creepy, and it's happening because of the technology other humans have created. We can likely all agree that technology has mystified, multiplied, and magnified nearly all of our relational impulses for better and for worse.
And from my perspective, it's the elephant in the room when it comes to talking about. Loneliness in today's world because yes, we can use it to share with each other in incredible ways like you and I are right now. But we are also familiar with blaming technology for aspects of our loneliness dilemma, A pattern of accusation that.
I'm not sure is entirely wrong. Alarmingly technological advancements are stepping in to fill the human void in many spaces of need, like nursing homes or even just personal conversations with an artificial intelligence. On today's episode, I'm joined by sociologist Felicia Wu Song. Felicia enters this conversation as a sociologist of culture of meaning making, and as a Christian, she helps me.
Dive into the phenomena of technology in the age of loneliness. Reflect on the call of the church in the digital age and grapple with how people of faith may approach AI and ultimately suggests that loneliness may actually be really important to the human experience. Thanks for listening today,
today. Alicia, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It's really a pleasure to be with you Rey. So. I'm thrilled to be inviting your perspective as a sociologist into this series that I am working on around themes of solitude and loneliness. Um, your work as a sociologist, I think inhabits this really fascinating intersection between Christian spirituality and you're also really interested in technology and I think you're doing really important work around AI and thinking about how all these things impact each other.
I would love if you could kick us off by just sharing with our audience a little bit. How do you find yourself here and what brings you to this research personally? Yeah, thank you. Yeah,
Felicia Wu Song: so I came to sociology with an interest in culture and when I use the word culture, I don't mean it in the sense of different societies have different cultures, that kind of multicultural sense, but rather culture.
In terms of meaning, how do we come to understand certain meanings of aspects of our life? Like what does identity look like? For a particular society, what does community look like for a particular society? And so my interest in culture is about how do we come to understand these meanings? How do we live together?
How do those meanings change through time? And that's where the technology question is super interesting to me because we all still use the same words. We talk about identity, we talk about community, but we all know that. Those words mean something really different for us now in 2025 compared to what it meant a hundred years ago when people were still using the same words.
Right. As a sociologist, what, um, like to bring together is trying to understand how does the technology that we use mediate or she. How we experience personal identity, how we experience community, how we experience relationships, and also how does, how does our society work with these technologies in these ways of life?
In the end of the day, even though I study technology, I'm really interested in what it means to be human. What it essentially comes down to, because even though. Times change, history moves. We live in different ecologies, architectural landscapes for our lives. In the end, we are still human creatures and we're still having to respond.
To these things. So, um, there isn't exactly a sociology of humans. I guess that would be kind of like anthropology, but I'm a sociology of culture and technology. Um, but in the end of the day, like I said, I'm asking questions of, you know, what are the things that don't change? What are the things we really need to be mindful of when we are either adopting technologies ourselves in our own lives or using technologies in our institutions?
Organizing how we do life together, even to the produced questions. The, the folks that are designing and producing the technology, what should they be thinking about as they are innovating and considering the applications? So
Macie Bridge: as you've gotten into this research, where do you see this eternal experience of human humans?
Feeling lonely, having experiences with solitude, that's something that's not necessarily new to the technological age, but where do you see that starting to emerge in your area of study?
Felicia Wu Song: I think the question of loneliness and solitude. My interest in it began when I came upon this idea that, um, we live in a time when we are expected to always be connected.
We have our devices that maybe some of us have them on our wrists. Some of us just have it in our pockets, but the expectation is we will always be accessible to people and that we should always be up on what's going on in people's lives. Right. I started wondering just what that does to us when we.
Permanently connected, right? This kind of state of consciousness in some ways, feeling like we never leave people. And you know, there was a, there was some kind of cell phone company years ago that had a, a campaign that was like. A person on a cell phone and like there was always a crowd of people with them.
The pitch was that that was a good thing, right? That, that like wherever they went, there was always a crowd of people with them. But that commercial always struck me as a bit odd because I was thinking, well sometimes we don't want a crowd of people with us. And sometimes that's actually not fantastic.
Um, and so what do we do now when we have technologies that always bring the crowd? Like the crowd is always with us all the time. The question of technology and solitude and, and loneliness also comes up for me in the context of thinking about spiritual disciplines and the disciplines of solitude, um, and silence, you know, through the ancient desert fathers and mothers, um, and wondering how much more difficult.
It might be to actually practice these ancient disciplines as people who are very unaccustomed to being alone or silent. Right? Uh, I'm sure you know the disciplines of solitude and, and silence have always been challenging for people through the ages for various reasons. But wondering if in these days, in our times, as we are being formed by these technologies, how much more difficult is it?
Question mark, and then what does that mean about certain aspects of God's nature that become actually more difficult also for us to access or to experience because it feel, it might feel. Incredibly uncomfortable for us. We are unaccustomed to God's silence or God's stillness, right? Because we are a people on the move, always getting content, always getting some kind of feedback from someone immediately, right?
And so what happens then with our interior spirituality, you know, like the shape of our souls, what is it being formed or what is still. Like a baby that needs to grow. Right. Um, that we need to kind of stretch and, and seed and be intentional about
Macie Bridge: that commercial that you're talking about, I think is a really fascinating example because it seems like.
Perhaps technology for us did really arise out of this desire to be more connected to each other. And I think a lot of what we see technology doing currently, um, is continuing to try to perpetuate different ways of connecting with each other. Do you understand us as like digging ourselves into a deeper hole as we like?
Lean further into that. How do you see technology connecting or disconnecting people? Yeah. Right now,
Felicia Wu Song: well, you know the history of. Media and communication technologies has always celebrated, right? The capacity to transcend space and time, right? That's always been the promise. Whether it was like even transportation technology, right?
Was always this. Fascinating capacity to overcome the limitations of our embodiment, right. Of, of being in one place and people being far away. And then the communication technologies have always celebrated our capacity to talk to someone on the other side of the world. Right? And, and those are wonderful things, right?
I mean, it's incredible. It's a beautiful thing for families. Uh, to be able to talk to each other when they're living in opposite sides of the world, right? I mean, what an incredible thing for a diaspora of people to stay connected. And at the same time with these incredible benefits are these norms that develop, I think, right?
So it's not just that there's a technology that comes into the world, it's that a society develops norms around how we should live. We come to celebrating connections so much that when we are actually perhaps alone or quiet, people might think that something is wrong. Right? Because now you have a technology mm-hmm.
That allows you to communicate all the time. Why wouldn't you use it? Kind of, uh, you know, Jacque Lu writes about this. He talks about technique. This mindset that, that whatever you can do, you should do. Right? And that technology. And cultures that, that are technological perpetuate this, right. If you can do it, you should do it.
And then, so if you're not doing it, something must be wrong, right? Like something must be wrong with you. I think it's, it's, it's always a tricky thing when we adapt technologies into our societies. There's wonderful benefits, but then the norms change. Certainly, you know, like the commercial, there's a lot of forces that are encouraging you to connect and use their devices mm-hmm.
And spend the money to buy their devices to do, to get that connection. But at the same time, we can be, um, losing sight of. Aspects of our humanity that become harder for us to access. Now, it's harder for us to access being in touch with the rhythms of the natural world because so many of us live in these.
Buildings that are awesome, that have electricity that keep the lights on. Right. And there's wonderful benefits to this. You know, I don't wanna give this stuff up, but that means I have to be super intentional about going outside, spending time in the sun or in the rain or whatever, right? Um, and so it is this, you know, I think the technology question has always had this tension of here are the benefits.
Mm-hmm. Right? But then how do you live in a way where those. Benefits don't become the defining way to live, defining what humanity is then because of the artifacts we've created.
Macie Bridge: This is fascinating. I'm, because I'm hearing you say. There's, there's an aspect of like, when we choose solitude, people then look at that as you're doing something wrong. Or maybe we feel put that on ourselves. We're doing something wrong, we have access to this connection. And yet I think what I'm, I've been hearing in the contemporary culture is a lot of, like, we have this problem of loneliness.
We have the male loneliness epidemic. We have, um, our young people are lonelier than ever. Um, and. It, I, I'm just piecing together this, we have the, the problem of loneliness, but then we also have this aspect of like, oh, but we're not, could solitude in some way choosing solitude. Just these moments of disconnection from the massive crowd in some way.
I don't wanna say fix, but be a counterpart to, to our problem of loneliness. I'm also really curious to know what you think about how this is shaping. You're talking about these questions of humanity. How's this shaping our younger generation? I, I think about this a lot. I, as part of my generation, I received my first cell phone when I was 12.
I was in seventh grade. Um, and I, I realize as, as. I've grown older the many ways that that has shaped my generation distinctly from, um, people even just a few years older than us. I'm really curious about those that are even younger than myself. And, um, you've done some research this, how does this shaping youth generally, but like their shape, their sense of humanity as a whole too?
I think
Felicia Wu Song: it's helpful to distinguish between loneliness. Social isolation and solitude. Yeah. Thank you for offering those definitions. Um, because we use these words very often interchangeably and from the outside, someone looking in on someone, it could look the same. We might use the word to apply to all three, but I think they're actually really different.
Let's start with social isolation. 'cause I think that's the easiest actually. Right. So social isolation is when someone is physically not with people, and relationally impoverished, shall we say, in. Ties with people in their lives. So survey questions that ask in the last six months, how many time, how many people have you talked to about something important, right?
That's measuring social isolation. 'cause if you say zero, right? I've talked to no one about something important, that means I don't have people in my life, right? That I can share what's going on. Like truly with. The social isolation piece is something that the data is showing. We are becoming more social isolated as a, as a people, right?
And there are lots of factors that are contributing to that. The decline in bricks and mortar neighborhoods, geographic mobility, people moving here and there for school and jobs, right? We don't have as much rootedness. Going back to the sixties, you know more and more people going to college, women going to college and working right, and not going back home to live once you're out of the home when you're 18, whatever, right?
That, that those trends are leading to more people living independently, but also alone socially with, with the potential for social isolation. That's where the technology piece comes to. Because as more and more of us have laptops and phones and ways to connect with people, we are increasingly in our homes doing that and not actually with people, or we are consuming content and not actually communicating with people that social isolation.
It's also increasing because we are not, we, we might be online in chat rooms and so forth, but we might not actually be with living with folks talking or, or cultivating certain kinds of relationships that we feel are, are intimate, um, in some, in certain regards. Okay. Um, loneliness then. Loneliness is the gap between what you think you should have.
In terms of satisfaction in relationships and what you perceive to be the case for you. Oh, so that's the gap. Okay. So social isolation is kind of an objective measure, so to speak. How many people do you, can you talk to about important things? You know? 4, 3, 2, 1, 0. Loneliness is a, is is subjective. I have this gap between, um, what I think I have and what I want.
So loneliness is interesting 'cause Sure, if you're in the house alone and you're also not talking to people you know, on the phone or whatever, you can feel lonely, but you could be married and you could have a thriving social life. And still be lonely. Mm-hmm. So it, from the outside, you might not look lonely, but you might end being very lonely.
Right. Because there's this subjective interior gap. So I think loneliness is super interesting because in some ways it's more a measure of your interiority. Than the objective. Right? Of course there can be a relationship of course, but what's interesting also when it comes to technology and young people is if, if loneliness is in fact a gap between what I have and what I want.
When I'm on social media and I'm looking at all these people having a great time and thinking I'm supposed to have that same thing, my expectation is going up. Right, because I'm thinking everybody has this incredible life but me. And so like, even though I might actually have a pretty vibrant social life with cool friends, but this making me feel bad about my life.
So the gap increases even though objectively nothing has changed. Right? So that's what I find fascinating about, uh, the loneliness piece with technology is how it's affecting our expectations. Rather than what might be actually happening, you know, in your life. And then solitude is what, uh, some psychologists called.
A positive aloneness, right? So this is an aloneness that that is generative, right? Where we have a conversation where, as David White puts it, we're capable of having a conversation with ourselves, and as the desert fathers and mothers would put it, we are able to have a conversation with God that that solitude is the space in which we have these conversations that could otherwise be.
Ignored, forgotten, pushed away. 'cause we don't wanna have those conversations, but that are actually both crucial for our human development, you know, just as a, as a human being to be. Self-reflective, you know, being able to create a narrative about what's been happening in my life, but also spiritually, right?
To, to dig into, you know, what, what is my soul saying, you know, what, what hunger is there? Has God been speaking to me and I just don't, I'm not, I'm haven't been paying attention. Right. Um, what is the divine presence? Even like to con, what is that? What is divine love? Even. Feel like to be present to the space, the solitude is the space in which we can experience that.
Macie Bridge: So then is there a perceived or understood correlation between somebody's capacity for solitude and their experiences of loneliness? Interesting
Felicia Wu Song: question. Yeah. I am. I am, I am. I'm not aware of whether that correlation has been, um, addressed, but that would be super interesting.
Macie Bridge: Yeah. Um, I also want to turn back towards the youth a little bit, and especially as you're bringing these themes of solitude as a space for spirituality.
Bring me further into that area of focus. How, how are youth responding to, um, we know that their experiences of loneliness are increasing. Is there a sense of identifying some of the social media that you're naming as as a problem or as a factor in it? Or where do things seem to be trending in our current
Felicia Wu Song: moment?
So when it comes to young people's relationship to solitude, you know, most of the research that I've seen. Tends to focus on social isolation and the loneliness is always, you know, because of its subjective nature is much more difficult to grasp. In terms of the writings that I've seen, I think there, there's like two pieces.
One is an argument that says it's not a bad thing. When you're a young person to experience loneliness every once in a while, right? There's, there's, there's more and more people writing in this main, that loneliness. Episodic loneliness, not chronic loneliness, right? 'cause there's debilitating type of loneliness.
Sure. That needs should have interventions. Right? But episodic loneliness, right? Mm-hmm. Is something that young people, human beings. Should experience because that is the portal to asking some big questions, right? That is the, that's the beginning point, right? To saying, what is this all about? What, what is my behavior reflecting about me?
What is this relationship actually pain that comes with loneliness can be the beginning of big questions that otherwise would be left unexplored. If we were merely kind of frolicking all the time, right? Kind of happily, you know, blissfully ignorant, uh, shall we say? Sure. And so there's that vein of argument, and then I think there's another vein of argument that just says, you know, you don't have to experience loneliness to get to solitude.
Right. That solitude is something that one should practice. Walking through the woods without your phones, like that's a good thing. Or just, you know, spending some time doodling or watercoloring in your room without any other sort of, um, communication or content, music, anything. Just quiet. Right? And just reflecting on things is a good thing again, because it is the way to hear oneself and also to if, if you're a person of faith.
To kind of extend your antenna out to the divine. Say, Hey, uh, you know, is there something going on that I just haven't been paying attention to? Um, I don't know that there's been much empirical studies in this area. There's certainly been writings more on the solitude side coming from the, the boredom literature, right?
That says, um, boredom is not a bad thing. Boredom is actually the, often the launching off point for creativity. Um, and, and so they might not use the word solitude at those times, but that it is, it's very similar, right? That when you're bored. Yeah. Everyone always says, when I was a kid I was always just, I had times when I was just bored.
Um, and that spiel often is bored alone. Mm-hmm. Not. Bored with other people, um, where you're just sitting in your room throwing the ball against the wall and just repetitively doing that, you know, bored now because there's nothing else to do.
Macie Bridge: Before we share the rest of today's episode, here's what's coming up next time in our limited series solo,
Hetta Howes: but anchor courage is.
A small cell, not always, but usually a join to a church on the side. And the idea was that it was one of the most venerated forms of Christian devotion at the time. The idea being that to become an anite, an you professed yourself dead to the world, you were kind of moving on to the next life, the sort of afterlife and turning your back on daily preoccupations.
Uh, temptations. Putting a line between yourself and the outside world and really turning your eyes to God and to heaven. It was a time to think, to contemplate, but it was also quite demanding in terms of things like fasting, prayer cycles. It wasn't supposed to be easy. That was. Kind of the point, but at the heart of the experience was solitude.
The idea of being on your own so that you can really focus wholeheartedly on God.
Macie Bridge: Glad you're with us. Now back to the episode,
the ai. That you're doing currently. We're kind of also getting to this idea of faux connection almost that technology can facilitate. Um, I think that as you've named, one of the blessings of technology is being able to stay connected to our friends and family in far places. And I can think of numerous times where I've had.
Essential, meaningful, profound conversations with friends and family from a distance. And there is a, a sense, I think, of something lacking there when you're not in person and maybe able to end the conversation with a hug. Um, and I, I am really curious. Where AI comes into the picture for you, and this is a new thing, I think, for all of us.
Everybody's kind of trying to grapple with what, what does this mean of our understanding of humanity and our understanding of our responsibility to each other, and connection. So where, where does AI come into the picture?
Felicia Wu Song: Let me just put a little asterisk before we get to AI on maybe what I'm implying.
I think I'm always slightly. Uncomfortable with maybe saying that it's like a pseudo relationship or a fo relationship when we're online. 'cause I really do think those connections are genuine, as he said. Um, I, I think for me it's more that there is something about the face-to-face embodied experience.
That we have, whether it's with close ties or even weak ties, you know, like even the barista that I see every week at the same time, right? There's something meaningful that is happening there that can impact how lonely or not lonely I feel that day. Right? Even if yes, they're not, you know, someone I'm, that actually knows anything about me, right?
There's something about that human encounter that is face-to-face and embodied that feeds our souls in a way that is just distinct. But also necessary than what we encounter through, you know, a video chat or a phone call. Um, that can also be deeply satisfying. Yes. Um, so that's just my little aspect there.
So when it comes to ai, the piece of it I am interested in is the role of AI chat bots. AI companionship, right? That's all in the news these days because all the different companies are, are selling products telling us that we just need their, their AI friends to help us not feel lonely. And the part of it that I'm actually interested in is the place in which.
Chatbots get used in context of care. Um, so if you are looking for a therapist but you don't have enough money, um, your insurance doesn't cover right. This human therapist. But you can have this chatbot therapist, right, to talk to or you don't. Your school, you live in a town that. He's under resourced with teachers.
And so you're given this chatbot, teacher tutor. What does that look like? Um, when we are relying on chatbots to, to yeah. Provide care for people in those contexts. And, and I know that there are lots of people in the game about, um, the differences between what's machine and what's human right. And I'm kind of.
I'm kind letting the philosophers and the theologians have that conversation. Mm-hmm. I'm kind of interested in this use reliance, growing reliance and marketing of chatbots in these contexts of care. Because there is this underlying argument I, and here I have to give credit to Alison Pugh, a sociologist at at Virginia, who wrote a book, fantastic book called The Last Human Job.
Um, because here's where she lays out this very compelling argument that we hear all the time, which is, of course, I wouldn't want to recommend someone to have a chatbot therapist, but it's better than nothing. For someone who's really lonely, like isn't it better than nothing? It's the better than nothing argument on technology.
This is super compelling. Yeah. Like I would rather have someone interact with something. Yeah. Than no one. Allison Pew makes the counter argument, right? She says, this argument is actually, it sounds altruistic, but actually leads to. Deeper and deeper levels of inequality. Right? It sounds like, oh, for those communities that don't have these resources, shouldn't they have at least these chat bots, okay.
Right. It's better than nothing. We can't get them real teachers. We can't get them real human therapists, so let's give them these chat bots. She says, no, this is actually just seeding. Our political situation that's saying, I will not pour money into getting you better teachers, getting you better. The, I will not pour money and resources into creating a system that actually will provide you with good teachers and then therapists and, and you know, service providers.
So her argument is, it sounds altruistic. It's actually a political argument about what we think we wanna put our resources into. Right. Mm-hmm. Oh, let's put our money into making better chat bots. Yeah. That are more human rather than actually just training and resourcing for there to be more humans who are teachers and therapists and so forth.
So it's a question of e equality and justice for her, which I find very compelling. Absolutely. You know, there's this recent study that came out again from Virginia, the Institute of Family Studies, that had this fascinating thing where. They were studying millennials and Gen Zers, and they were asking them about ai and what they found was that they were class differences.
Okay? The lower class you are, the less educated you are, the more skeptical you are of AI in general. Okay? So that's point number one. Mm-hmm. But then when asked about whether they would be open to having an AI romance, it flips. So the less resources you have, the less education you have, the more open you are to engaging in ai romance.
Wow. Super interesting, right? Like skeptical, but open. What? What does this mean? Yeah. Right. Like you would expect it to be aligned in the opposite ways. Yes. Right. And so. My first guess, I don't know. Mm-hmm. This is just, you know, like a hot take is that for young people who are likely in communities and life circumstances where the horizons don't look great.
Mm-hmm. You know, your job prospects are not great. You probably are in a small town with not a lot of people. You, you just don't have a lot to look forward to necessarily. Mm-hmm. You are skeptical about ai, but you're like, well, I don't know. Maybe that's better than nothing. Mm-hmm. For me. Yeah. Right. Like in that space, like I don't know if I'm gonna find a partner that's actually going to listen to me, be patient with me.
I don't know. Maybe that's all I've got. Mm-hmm. So there's like. Possibly, I don't know, maybe there's a resignation, a kind of like, I don't like this, but this might be all I get. 'cause I don't see anyone in society reaching out to me. Mm-hmm. Seeing me, right. Wanting to hear my story. I don't know. Again, that's just a thought.
Um, but it makes me think about from a, from a faith community perspective. Yes. Okay. Church. Step it up. Yeah. Right. Churches, what we, the, the biggest asset and strength that we have is that we are embodied and we are in places. Mm. Real places. And even if we're small, even if we're just few, you know, not a lot of resources, we can be.
To people mm-hmm. In their place. We can, might not be able to fix their problems. Mm-hmm. But we can walk with them. We can live in solidarity with them. And Allison Pew makes this point about how. Chat bots can be very knowledgeable. They can appear so judgment free and affirming, you know, and many people are talking about how that can go sideways.
Right? Kind of like a little too affirmative. Mm-hmm. Right. About things that should actually, you know, be corralled in and being like, no, no, no, that's not actually healthy. So much of the AI argument assumes that people just wanna be seen. Which again sounds really compelling. You're like, yeah, people just wanna be seen.
Mm-hmm. Listen to heard. And she's like, no, no, no. What people actually, what human beings actually want is they wanna be seen by another human being. Why? Because that human being creates risk for them. That human being could judge them, could dismiss them, could say, forget you, you know, like you're hopeless.
It's that risk. Mm-hmm. But when that human being listens and takes in and doesn't say that and actually says, I cherish your Divinity. I cherish your life experience. You are worthy of my time. Right. Even despite whatever has just been said. Right. That that's the piece of it that we want as human beings, not merely that someone's just gonna receive, receive.
Which again, I'm just like, oh, that's gold. Right? Good job, Nelson Pew. Right? That's, that's incredible insight into a humanness. But for those who are Christians, I think that's also insight into what Grace is. Yes. Like, oh, that's Grace. It's like that's, that's what it's, right. Mm-hmm. And so, and, and that's what everybody is longing for in the end.
Mm-hmm. And in that sense, AI technologies. Aren't capable of creating conditions in which grace can happen. Mm-hmm. It's endemic to personhood. So that's where my thoughts go on AI and loneliness. And so the idea generally is that I'm not so much talking about how does. Loneliness. Then lead people to rely on AI technologies, which certainly can happen.
Mm-hmm. You know, and is happening. We see that in the numbers of people seeking out ai, companionships, et cetera. What I'm interested in is what happens in a society that disproportionately relegates chatbots to people. To say, here's what we're gonna give you. And that those populations who are already vulnerable in various ways are precisely the people that will experience more loneliness because they won't have human connection.
Right. Even in these professionalized care settings,
Macie Bridge: oh my gosh, so much where we're at as a society, I think thinking about our, the grace that we extend to each other and also just our responsibility to each other. One of the things I also wanted to ask you about was, uh, you're talking about AI as sort of coming in. Counter to or or adjacent to another human being in conversation.
And I've wondered if, if there's a sense of AI, almost as a divine figure, is some people engaging with it that way? Do you have a sense of what, as we're thinking about solitude as a space for better listening to God and opening ourselves to divine relation, are people turning to AI as a solution for that as well?
I, I, I think you always have to ask with these new technologies, is there a sense of, I think with almost anything, God can work through anything. Where do we draw the line with ai?
Felicia Wu Song: Anecdotally and, and just in some of my own readings, I, I've definitely seen that some people or read about people that.
Perceives the all knowing quality of AI to be godlike. And that makes sense to me. You know, there's all kinds of people in all different kinds of life circumstances that I think, you know, all the way back in the early nineties, Sherry Turkle, the social psychologist at MIT, you know, she was writing about human computer interface early and she was always saying that.
Human beings are so generous. You know, like we give machines humanlike, like we project onto machines, humanlike properties very easily. This was back in the nineties when AI was very, very clunky. You know, kind of like back in the Tamagotchi pet days and, but it's like as human says something about us, you know, as human beings like are just willing to.
Be in relationship, like we're still relational. Mm-hmm. That we will even take a pretty clunky computer program and attribute kind of these, these human-like qualities. And so now, not surprisingly, with something much more sophisticated, we would attribute even divine God-like properties. Right. Because it, it seems so powerful.
Yeah. Oh yeah. And then what are the limits? Um. And, and how God can use technology. Yeah. I, you know, honestly, I haven't thought a whole lot about that area yet. And I guess when it comes to the broader question of, of God using technologies, but at the same time as a, as a sociologist, I think what we have, like what our discipline can contribute to conversations is the reminder that as human beings, we function within environments.
Mm-hmm. We, we function within certain kinds of social conditions that set us up to fail or to succeed. So whereas psychology kind of locates right? Everything in your brain or right, right in your personhood and your in your own story, right? Like, what's happened to you as a child and so forth. Sociology reminds us that there are all these external factors.
That are shaping what is happening to us.
Macie Bridge: Hmm.
Felicia Wu Song: Things that are out of our, outside of my control. Mm-hmm. Right. Because they're societal, they're institutional, they're organizational. And so I would say for ai, sure. Like good things can come out of even the most wonky of AI applications. You know, I'm not gonna say that that's never gonna happen.
Mm-hmm. But I think it's our responsibility to create social conditions, environments. That actually set people up to succeed in the things that are essential in their lives. Uh, like let's not make it so hard for people to experience solitude. Let's not make it so hard for people to experience the divine right.
Um, in the ways that we understand it to be. And again, it's not to say that there might not not be new things that we can learn, right? Like I, I know lots of people that talk about engaging in practices of like. Centering prayer, for example, through online groups, online prayer circles, right? And really feeling the divine working through that space, even though they're not in the room together.
I believe that can happen. Why not? Like, I'm not averse to that, but like, hey, if I could be in a room with people, you know, like if we can provide that for people. Why wouldn't we? Mm-hmm. Because there are all these other benefits, right, that come with that, that are much more difficult or just not accessible.
So, um, a lot of what I end up thinking about and proposing is, is always concern. I feel like I'm trying to address problems with old answers or old fashioned thises. It's sort of like, well, you know, as human beings there are certain things that haven't changed. Discipleship now is the same thing as discipleship a hundred years ago.
These are still quite the same questions of idolatries, the same questions of compulsions, the same questions of our vulnerabilities. Uh, you know, these are all the same questions. We have new. Variables, maybe they're actually more difficult to overcome, right? Because they have been normalized or institutionalized in certain ways.
So those are different. But in the end of the day, um, the movement, the kind of work that has to be done, the kind of. Decisions that have to get made are the same and the same need
Macie Bridge: for the church to step in, step up. Um, one of the questions I wanted to ask you was to anyone who might be listening, sitting with their own feelings of loneliness or perhaps just contemplating solitude, what do you think are the questions we should be asking of those
Felicia Wu Song: feelings?
I, well, so first I would say we should cut ourselves a outta slack. We should. We need to remind ourselves that feeling lonely is very human, and it doesn't mean that something's wrong with me. It's not that I'm deficient because I, I think we need to like, push against the lie, right? That's just like you've done something wrong.
Just, you know, right? Something's wrong with you. That's like the lie of condemnation, right? This is, this is all your fault. And then from there, move into curiosity again. It's, it's a, it's, what I'm trying to encourage is to not be afraid, because I think we are afraid. Right? We're afraid of It can be really, it can be scary, right?
To be like, oh my gosh, like is this really happening to me? Or why am I feeling this way? Or What's gonna happen if I let myself be alone? I don't know what thoughts I'm gonna have. I know it's, you know, emotions are gonna come up for me. We wanna be curious about the time and not try to control. And so our curiosity can lead us to ask the questions, what do I need to see today?
Now, in this moment, right? Understanding that our emotions are often all over the place, and circumstances can change and we can turn on a dime. Like what do I need to see now? Uh, and for people of faith asking, Lord, what is it that you want me to see now? And if we're uncomfortable. Yeah, still feeling tense, you know, asking for peace.
Asking for calmness. Ask, saying, I am, I'm afraid. I'm afraid of what's gonna come up. Help me to see, help me to be able to hold whatever it is, and, and if I'm not able to hold it, then please provide someone to help me hold this. Right. If someone needs to help me hold this difficult thing. Um, and so I think those questions of acceptance, those questions of curiosity is what can, um, start to.
I always think the image I always have is where we can, we get really like ossified, like stiff with who we think we are and what we're about and what life is. But like solitude and loneliness starts to kind of like soften it up. It can feel like it's unsettling and, and our foundation is shaking, but actually it's softening it up in a very important way.
Like to grow right and to hear something new. And so. I mean, I think it's different for everyone. Personalities, life experiences, it's gonna be different. But I feel like those basic movements, your interior movements are really important for those times and those experiences to be generative and not be kind of the spiral, you know, um, touch it can be very easily, um, if we kind of get down on ourselves.
And so I'm someone who. Needs paper and scribblings. I feel like it is getting things out of me, you know, and other people. That might be moving their body, right or doing some kind of repetitive action. You know, like I have friends who knit and that's like, it's what they, you know, and that's what gets them into a, a generative zone.
I encourage people to be self-aware and self-reflective about what works for you when you either encounter the loneliness or are seeking solitude, um, to kind of create the condition that helps you right here. Listen, articulate. Reflect in the faith that that God is calling you to.
Macie Bridge: Amen. Felicia, thank you so much for bringing not only your expertise in your field, but also your deep faith to our podcast today.
I feel enlightened and hopeful leaving this conversation, so thank you for offering this to our listeners today.
Felicia Wu Song: For sure. Yes, it's a pleasure
Evan Rosa: For the Life of the World is a production of the Yale Center for faith and Culture at Yale Divinity School. This episode featured Felicia Wu Song, interviewed by Macie Bridge, production assistance by Alexa Rollow, Emily Brookfield, and Hope Chun. I'm Evan Rosa and I edit and produce the show.
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