More than forty years after his twenty-five-year-old son Eric died in a climbing accident, philosopher Nicholas Wolterstorff joins Miroslav Volf to revisit the grief behind his classic Lament for a Son and his recent Living with Grief. “If he was worth loving when alive, he was worth grieving when dead.” In this episode they reflect together on mourning loss, refusing both the consolations of theodicy and the pressure to move on. Together they discuss owning grief rather than disowning it, lament as a cry that transcends analysis, and the limits of explaining suffering through theodicy. They explore Augustine and Calvin on grief, Karl Barth's “nothingness,” universality hidden in particular sorrow, and the prison classroom where incarcerated men claimed their own grief redemptively. Episode Highlights "I could not, and would not, allow it simply to heal." "If he was worth loving when alive, he was worth grieving when dead." "In my story I always say: I am one who lost a son. That's part of who I am." "Children should not die at twenty-five years of age. Nobody should die at twenty-five years of age." "It was good that I loved Eric. It was worth it. So my grief is worthwhile. And, in this world, love and suffering come together." About Nicholas Wolterstorff Nicholas Wolterstorff is the Noah Porter Professor Emeritus of Philosophical Theology at Yale University and a Senior Fellow at the Institute for Advanced Studies in Culture at the University of Virginia. Born in 1932, he earned his PhD at Harvard and taught philosophy for thirty years at Calvin College before joining Yale in 1989. A leading Christian philosopher, he helped develop Reformed epistemology and co-founded the Society of Christian Philosophers. His books span aesthetics, epistemology, justice, and liturgy, including Lament for a Son (1987) and the memoir In This World of Wonders (2019). His son Eric died in a climbing accident in 1983. Helpful Links and Resources Lament for a Son, by Nicholas Wolterstorff https://www.eerdmans.com/9781467419239/lament-for-a-son/ Living with Grief, by Nicholas Wolterstorff https://wipfandstock.com/9798385201006/living-with-grief/ Calvin Prison Initiative https://calvin.edu/prison-initiative Show Notes Grief as an open wound Two books, forty years apart: Lament for a Son and Living with Grief Eric Wolterstorff's death at twenty-five in a climbing accident, Austria, 1983 Lament as a cry, not an analysis "I could not, and would not, allow it simply to heal." Grief-process books that failed: "inviting me to look away from Eric" "If he was worth loving when alive, he was worth grieving when dead." Owning grief versus disowning it; narrative identity "I am one who lost a son"; grief as part of who you are Augustine's moral disowning; shame over loving too much Owning grief redemptively; good that couldn't have come otherwise Calvin Prison Initiative, Handlon Correctional Facility, Ionia, MI Prison classroom: "we were in grief but didn't know how to express it. You have given us the words." Universality in particularity The pallet of finished books: "What have I done?" Grief brought on oneself: "not an assault, but we brought it onto ourselves" Karl Barth's "nothingness"; evil God will defeat "Children should not die at twenty-five years of age." Love that knowingly risks grief: "love and suffering come together" #NicholasWolterstorff #LamentForASon #LivingWithGrief #Grief #Lament #Theodicy #FaithAndGrief #MiroslavVolf #ForTheLifeOfTheWorld #YaleFaithAndCulture Production Notes - This podcast featured Nicholas Wolterstorff with Miroslav Volf - Edited and Produced by Evan Rosa - Hosted by Evan Rosa - Production Assistance by Noah Senthil - A Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/about - Support For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give
More than forty years after his twenty-five-year-old son Eric died in a climbing accident, philosopher Nicholas Wolterstorff joins Miroslav Volf to revisit the grief behind his classic Lament for a Son and his recent Living with Grief.
“If he was worth loving when alive, he was worth grieving when dead.”
In this episode they reflect together on mourning loss, refusing both the consolations of theodicy and the pressure to move on. Together they discuss owning grief rather than disowning it, lament as a cry that transcends analysis, and the limits of explaining suffering through theodicy. They explore Augustine and Calvin on grief, Karl Barth's “nothingness,” universality hidden in particular sorrow, and the prison classroom where incarcerated men claimed their own grief redemptively.
Episode Highlights
"I could not, and would not, allow it simply to heal."
"If he was worth loving when alive, he was worth grieving when dead."
"In my story I always say: I am one who lost a son. That's part of who I am."
"Children should not die at twenty-five years of age. Nobody should die at twenty-five years of age."
"It was good that I loved Eric. It was worth it. So my grief is worthwhile. And, in this world, love and suffering come together."
About Nicholas Wolterstorff
Nicholas Wolterstorff is the Noah Porter Professor Emeritus of Philosophical Theology at Yale University and a Senior Fellow at the Institute for Advanced Studies in Culture at the University of Virginia. Born in 1932, he earned his PhD at Harvard and taught philosophy for thirty years at Calvin College before joining Yale in 1989. A leading Christian philosopher, he helped develop Reformed epistemology and co-founded the Society of Christian Philosophers. His books span aesthetics, epistemology, justice, and liturgy, including Lament for a Son (1987) and the memoir In This World of Wonders (2019). His son Eric died in a climbing accident in 1983.
Helpful Links and Resources
Lament for a Son, by Nicholas Wolterstorff https://www.eerdmans.com/9781467419239/lament-for-a-son/
Living with Grief, by Nicholas Wolterstorff https://wipfandstock.com/9798385201006/living-with-grief/
Calvin Prison Initiative https://calvin.edu/prison-initiative
Show Notes
Grief as an open wound
Two books, forty years apart: Lament for a Son and Living with Grief
Eric Wolterstorff's death at twenty-five in a climbing accident, Austria, 1983
Lament as a cry, not an analysis
"I could not, and would not, allow it simply to heal."
Grief-process books that failed: "inviting me to look away from Eric"
"If he was worth loving when alive, he was worth grieving when dead."
Owning grief versus disowning it; narrative identity
"I am one who lost a son"; grief as part of who you are
Augustine's moral disowning; shame over loving too much
Owning grief redemptively; good that couldn't have come otherwise
Calvin Prison Initiative, Handlon Correctional Facility, Ionia, MI
Prison classroom: "we were in grief but didn't know how to express it. You have given us the words."
Universality in particularity
The pallet of finished books: "What have I done?"
Grief brought on oneself: "not an assault, but we brought it onto ourselves"
Karl Barth's "nothingness"; evil God will defeat
"Children should not die at twenty-five years of age."
Love that knowingly risks grief: "love and suffering come together"
#NicholasWolterstorff #LamentForASon #LivingWithGrief #Grief #Lament #Theodicy #FaithAndGrief #MiroslavVolf #ForTheLifeOfTheWorld #YaleFaithAndCulture
Production Notes
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors.
Evan Rosa: Hey friends, before the episode starts here, a brief reminder
in just a few weeks, we're gonna be taking a production break for the show.
For most of July and August, we'll be creating the next season of for the life of the world. and new episodes will be dropping in September.
We're really grateful that you're listening and we're excited to be bringing new conversations your way. Enjoy today's episode.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: went here is quite often is get on with things no use crying over spill milk.
And that felt to me a profound desecration.
Uh, I could not and not, um,
it simply to heal
to,
Evan Rosa: Nicholas Wolterstorff's son, Eric, was 25 years old when he died. He was mountain climbing in Austria
Nick is an intellectual, a philosopher, And concerned friends sent him books about the grieving process. But something about them didn't feel right
Nicholas Wolterstorff: remember which ones, but two of them I opened, read two pages read, anymore. Foundpsychologically impossible.
Evan Rosa: The response came naturally, but there's something deeply wise
in this observation
After all, there is a huge difference between reading about grief and grieving
reading about life than living
Nicholas Wolterstorff: were inviting me to look away from Eric. my love of Eric and my grief over Eric, and instead to look at this abstract thing called the grief process or Death or
Grief
with a capital G.
And I couldn't do that. worth loving and my love was good. So, so how could
I.How can I look away was worth loving when alive, he was worth grieving when dead. So, sofelt to me like distraction books about the process of living with grief. Um,
Evan Rosa: And when Nick did feel so moved to write about his experience of grief and losing Eric
It meant that even for this analytic philosopher, an analysis of grief, an analysis of lament and suffering would be insufficient
So he wrote Lament for a Son short book that registers as a cry
with the erudition of a philosopher
and the emotion of a man who lost his son Today, more than 40 years later Nick has written a follow-up, Living with Grief A book to examine the nature of this grief that he has so intensely felt and an invitation to own one's grief redemptively
During its writing, Nick workshopped a manuscript of the book with twenty-five inmates
at Michigan's Handlon State Prison for Men
asking them about their experience of owning their grief redemptively
Nicholas Wolterstorff: and
in my story I always say. Not immediately, but I am one who lost a son. You must know
that's part
of who I am. in, in a certain sense, the wound has scabs around the edges, it's still there. There will be unanticipated ways, um, something happens That reminds me of something else that reminds me of something else. And then Eric is back there and, and, the grief comes welling back, and less often obviously, than at first, but.
but it's still always there. good that I loved Eric. worth it. So my grief is worthwhile. Yep. And this world, love and suffering come together. Nicholas Wolterstorff is the Noah Porter Professor Emeritus of Philosophical Theology at Yale Divinity School,
Evan Rosa: He's the author of many philosophical writings, And it's safe to say that he's one of the most influential Christian philosophers alive today. In this conversation, Miroslav
He and Miroslav Volf discuss the lingering wound of loss
Why the experience and act of grieving transcends its analysis
the limits of theodicy or providing a defense for why God allows suffering what it could mean to own one's personal grief redemptively in that universal experience of love and suffering coming together
Miroslav Volf: Well, hello It's so great have this opportunity to to you.
you know what,I, can, never
forget when I came to the Yale Divinity School and partly also with your help, I oh, this is just such a wonderful place, where
Nick
Nicholas Wolterstorff: is also teaching.
Miroslav Volf: And I think promptly after two years or three years, you disappeared.
And I still feel that. As a wound. I'm
grieving
it.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: Oh, well, in many forms, right?
Miroslav Volf: There
we go. this was, this was. I understand that. And one of the wonderful, uh, many wonderful books you have written. And,and maybe at some point you and I will have opportunity to talk about others of your books on this same podcast. But now, Uh, let's talk about a couplet, of books and the occasion is the second, of his books that, deal with your grief, at the loss of your son Eric, when he was 25 years,
old
to a climbing accident.
Uh, one of these books, is lament for a Son, which
has become
a classic
and then more recent book is Living with Grief and these two books will be, subject of our conversation, I should say. And I think I mentioned that to you,
that
when I taught a class, last year. Called suffering simply. I assigned these two books for one of the sessions, that we had.
And, I think it's fair to say that these two books were the favorites of. All of the books that I've assigned,
for the class, lament for it son, but also living with grief. They clearly spoke, to people,
to students,
who lived in the very different, conditions, uh, have different sensibilities.And you've kind of articulated something, for them.you've described lament for a son as a cry. Not an analysis. you, the philosopher, allowed yourself, a kind of un theorized, expression, not completely unmanaged, literarily and in other ways, expression because it's, such an incredibly beautifully written book.
But nonetheless, you at this point at least
didn't want
to theorize it later on. Uh, uh,you resist that? Can you say a little bit why that is? and,What's this relationship,
of
being before God? Being human before God?
that
sometimes require us, to kind of park, theorizing efforts.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: later on, living with grief, there's theory there, but none of it in, lament. For some after Eric died, people would recommend to me books about grief, books about the grieving process and so forth and about death, theological books about death, psychological books about living with grief, I remember vividly, especially the grief process books. I don't remember which ones, but two of them I opened, read two pages and I couldn't read anymore. found it psychologically impossible.
and I think what was going on was they were inviting me to look away from Eric. And my love of Eric and my grief over Eric, and instead to look at this abstract thing called the grief process or Death or
Grief
with a capital G.
And I couldn't do that. I psychologically couldn't do that Miroslav. But also looking back,
even if
I could have done it, I think I would not have done
it
looking away. I had loved
Eric.
My love of Eric was a good thing. He was worth loving all of us, I suppose love, have affection for some things, attachment to some things that,that aren't really worth loving, but that was clearly not the case for Eric. He was worth loving and my love was good. so how could I. How can I look away if he was worth loving when alive, he was worth grieving when dead. So,so it felt to me like distraction these books about the process of living with grief. and I've
never much thought about this until you've asked
me.
The theological
import, I would say that. We learned from scripture is that something has gone awry in
God's
world. It's not all happening the way God meant it to happen. And in Paul's letters, Paul talks about
powers and
principalities.Um, I'm a philosopher, philosophers when they talk about evil temps to talk about individual wills, but I think it's utterly clear that
there are
ideologies in the world. I had people in their grip
and leading
lead people to think things and say things and do things that they would otherwise not have done. And so also with death, Paul speaks
about the last
great enemy to be overcome. So I couldn't, and wouldn't, and didn't want to look away from Eric,
do something other than cry and engage him.
Psychological, theological, philosophical analysis.
Miroslav Volf:
Nicholas Wolterstorff: Lemme say one more thing.
there's a long tradition in philosophy and theology of thessy trying to figure out God's ways to, with respect to human beings.
be Before this happened, I would've expected Eric
staff
to create a great interest on my part in the Odyssey, but it's done the opposite. I don't wanna read this stuff, philosophers that I admire. I can't and don't want to read this stuff. I don't fully understand that, but that's me.
Miroslav Volf: So, uh, if I hear you rightly, you, explain this, uh, kind of a push against, the,Theis as, so some kind of a fidelity to love for Eric. At the same time, you also say, and these two things are not incompatible. I'm just thinking, how do
you think about it?
You say in this lament for Son that net of meaning is too small.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: I
don't remember saying that, but yeah, that was certainly true of me. I, when I think of who I was before Eric's death, I didn't.
Incorporate
into my way of thinking and living the death of someone I loved. I knew this happened, but, pushed, yeah, it on the edges of what was meaning for, for me, you
know.
Miroslav Volf: But what, what did it mean for you to live
an
entirely different life after Eric?kind of reorientation, you speak of that, in living with grief.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: So it profoundly interrupted my
plans
expectations and so forth. My, my sense was this. A huge part of myself had been ripped out of me. A big part of myself was hopes for Eric, expectations for Eric, regrets for Eric, love of Eric and so forth. Expectations, when were we gonna see each other and so forth. That was a big part of my life, and with same sort of thing with respect to our other children, of course. my, my images, they were flapping loose in the breeze. Eric didn't exist anymore, so I had no expectations for him. He didn't exist anymore, so I had nothing to expect and be proud of and so forth. There was a gap in my life as there had never been
before,
and I had to live around that gap.
I found
myself sometimes saying I had to learn to live around
the gap.
I don't think it was a matter of learning. I think it was a matter of being forced to
gap, and that caused a deep reorientation of
my
attitude toward my other children, toward human beings, towards the world. I had a lot more worries for the welfare of my other children, what was good in the world and life. It became more precious and glowing. And so in all kinds of ways, it would
take me a long
time to describe
it was not just living
out
my previous expectations, but in a jarring way, having to reorient them.
Miroslav Volf: So you may know or not know that,when I was 1-year-old, my
Not
quite 5-year-old brother
was killed in an
Nicholas Wolterstorff: didn't know that. I didn't know that.
Miroslav Volf: and
prior to that
my mother had
lost twins. Two girls
Who were seven months old and who were born, what she thought is perfectly alive.
alive and normal, that she describes, their fingers, everything was there, these little things.
And she, she held them and then they were taken away from her because they didn't have incubators in which to put them so they would. Keep alive. So soda died. Uh, that was before I was born,but then the
death of
my brother after that
was an accident. and she was completely
devastated.
and.
she didn't want
that, just as you say for the wound to heal.
you're right that you kept the wound from Healing Act, in fact, she did that, as well. And
it was of course, magnified by that
previous loss.
But then the question was,
quite a big chunk of her life had to roughly continue
the Way did because she
had other children.
I was one years old, my sister was, six years old, and for a while at least I'm told we were neglected because she
just
could not attend to us. And then. She turned to us discovering that she had those responsibilities,
but that
meant for her. And uh, I want to ask whether that was different for you, that kind of healing of the wound
or
certain kind of distance
from its media experience
had to take place, some comfort need to be found. Because if she didn't, she
couldn't go.
about her ordinary duties. Do you, did you experience that or how was it to keep the wound from healing?
Nicholas Wolterstorff: Now in, in a certain sense, the wound has scabs around the edges, but it's still there. There will be in unanticipated ways, um, something happens That reminds me of something else that reminds me of something else. And then Eric is back there and, and, the grief comes welling back, and less often obviously, than at first,
but it's still always there.
Miroslav Volf: what,
What I'm wondering most is what does it mean to live. Not just with open wound,
But in with
keeping it energy, of keeping it open.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: Wow. That's a good question. Um,so
keeping it open and
living.
Uh, I could not and not, um,
allow it simply to heal to, I mean, what went here is quite often is get on with things no use crying over spill milk.
And that felt to me a profound desecration.if Eric was worth loving and if my love was worthwhile, then, I just forget about it, put it behind me, and so forth?
So.I think what happened, Miroslav is that two things, I suppose one Christian scripture reoriented itself. That is, I saw things that I had, well, I may have seen them before, but things, elements in Christian Scripture jumped to the fore, which had not, which had been recessive before, suddenly. I noticed, I knew that there were laments in the Psalms and managed that
about
20 of 'em, Open, open crimes of grief.
I, I knew that they were there.I found myself treasuring my children more and worried, worried more about, I remember shortly after Eric died, our daughter Amy. I was setting out to ride her bike on the edge of the street. And I wanted to say to her, Amy, please stay. Please stay home. I, so I restrained myself from saying that.
so my experience was also that what is good in the world,
and there's
much, of course, that's good. Jump to the
fore.
I stood in all before, in a way, in ways in which previously I just yeah, you
know, good nice sunset, nice, um, so forth. So two things happened. My life itself had a, acquired a different effective condu and so forth, and elements of and scripture itself sort of
re reshaped itself.
those two
things. Always
at the center was,I talk in living with grief about
a
person's narrative identity. That is the story that you tell when somebody says, tell me who you are.and
in my story I always say. Not immediately, but I am one who lost a son. You must know
that's part
of who I am.
if, whereas we both know, it's,
it's a, a prominent strand
the west, West, but western generalism, delete, forget about it.
Get on with things. Um, nocrying over spill milk and so forth. Um, Part of who I am, and I tell people that it's part of who I am.
Miroslav Volf: So you, you talk about it as a kind of strategy of Owning, grief
that has been a long tradition. And in particular, you connected with Augustine.and something, um, that, that, that grief in a sense was
expression
of some kind of spiritual inadequacy. that one had to get over. you talk about
also,kind of this
Need to be grateful
for almost,
for what happened.
in a sense.
If everything, that happens in the world is according to God design, you should be grateful for the entirety
of it.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: Working to shape me up will make me a better person. Yeah. Yeah.
Miroslav Volf: has the grief
you think
made
you. In a
particular way, a better person?
Nicholas Wolterstorff: So let me first speak to the dis, don't let me forget that question, but to the disowning.
West
there are
various kinds of disowning.
Grief,
Augustine's is quite striking. is willing to talk about his grief, so he doesn't delete it from his narrative identity.
It, It's very prominent there. But what he adds then is his grief over the death of his friend. He was guilty of having loved his friend too much. The same about the death of his mother. He was guilty of having loved his friend, so, so it was a kind of moral disowning, and I think that's
been a
prominent strand in the West that yes, I did did die and my children did die, and I really should be getting over it and so forth. What I argue suggest, I'm talking about my own case, of course. We should frankly own our grief, make it part of who we are and part of the story that we tell and so forth.
Miroslav Volf: my question that I asked, which is very related to, to this one, was becoming, in a sense a better person through grief because in a sense you speak about that as well.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: the way I, um, eventually began to think about it
is that
I, and we who suffer grief, we should own it, not disown it in one way or another, own it and try to own it. Redemptively,
I say
try
to own it
in such a way that. Some good comes out of it that would not have been there had we not experienced this grief.
Some people
can never come to the point of owning it, redemptively,
but
I think when I look back at what happened
in my
case, I Lament for a song. You and lots of people
wrote it.
I would not have written that if had not died. Of course I would not have.
it's a good thing that I wrote it. that as good, that has come from this tragedy when people suggest, oh, it's such a fine contribution, that it was really sort of worth Eric's staff. I want to say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
no,
one,
Miroslav Volf: Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: It's how Eric's death has shaped me and what I do in a way that would not have happened before.
And I think we see that in a good many people who suffer grief
redemptively, redemptively, they or experience ways in which that leads to a good, that would not have happened before.maybe we'll get to it, but, um, um.a Calvin
Prison Initiative
which gives courses to adult men.
They're all adult men. Well, some of them are late teenagers in Hamilton State Prison. talked to them on one occasion about living redemptively, and they began talking in class
Em. About how they live grief redemptively in prison. And it was for me, an extraordinarily moving experience because of course it's very different from, but to talk, to hear them talk that they're in grief, but they don't let the grief just, they don't just wallow
in the
grief.
Amazingly, it's, they have found ways. They do find ways to live it. Redemptively. Was for me, incredibly moving.
Miroslav Volf: you said at one point that,
grief
as our lives more generally. Is particular
that.
that each life with grief has its own inscape,
Nicholas Wolterstorff: Yep.
Miroslav Volf: its own distinct contour, and yet you publish the book and people on the other side of the world
read
and feel incredibly moved. what you have written, how do you think about this relationship between particularity of, our experiences
and the kind
of almost universal meaning that they have
when articulated.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: Recently there has been a translation into Farsi per language,
Nicholas Wolterstorff: which struck me as the most extraordinary, I mean Portuguese, I understand in Dutch and so forth.so when I wrote the book, I wrote it for myself. I had to, it was my way of coping. As I say, I tried people's suggestions reading these other books, and I couldn't do that.
So it was my cry. It was for myself, and it sat there for a while. And And then I suppose as a result of some conversations, I thought, this might be of use to parents, other parents who have lost children. So it was
that
I thought that led me to send it off to the publisher. Let me add this little parenthesis.when I first saw it, it was at the publisher. It was on a wooden pallet and there was a whole stack of couple hundred, I suppose, whatever, and I suddenly had the image of lying on my back. On a hostile gurney, my gut sliced open, people marching by and walking, and I thought, what have
I done?
What have I done?
I
mean, when I talk about the image comes back, so what I experienced then is that, yes. It helped people like me, parents who lost children.
One thing
that I discovered in the responses was that it gave them permission to grieve themselves. A lot of them felt they should really stifle it and so forth.
They gave them permission, and some of them said it gave them words that they could adapt for their own purposes. But then to my amazement, other kinds of grief came to the fore.a person who was a personnel manager in a firm wrote me and said that his grief was that when employees to whom he was attached, left, and he was in grief, and he found my book helpful. I gave a little talk about living with grief, and afterwards a woman came up to me, And said to me, my grief is that my son will never be what I hoped he would be.
And she quickly left. That's a very different kind of grief.a man came up to me and said he was, he had grieved over the,collision of a car, of which he was very fond, and he said,
I'm ashamed
of it, but that was his form of grief. Another person came up to me and said.her grief was anticipatory grief.
She anticipated her husband had cancer and
she anticipated
his life and
so forth.
So this whole range of people in grief and, finding my words helpful and, andfinding permission to grieve. So I concluded Miroslav that strangely, I can't really explain this. there proved
to be more
universality in the particularity of what I said than there would've been if had given some generic discourse on grief. That's peculiar.
I don't really understand it, but, that's universality in the particularity is all took.
Miroslav Volf: my most vivid experience of this in the, in a, uh, somewhat different context was, before my first trip to Egypt.
I
read number of books
by
Najib Mafu.
Mafu, Egyptian writer. He happened not to have traveled, his entire life, anywhere from,
out of Egypt except twice for health reasons, to former Yugoslavia to London. And
Yet here I am from a very different world
by that time
living in United States, reading his work Completely resonating
with, with this world that is happening in Cairo
and which he's sketching,
for me. And then I realized how
this.
Puzzle of particularity that turns out to be universal.
it's just an extraordinary, thing.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: So let me give you what proved to be the most astonishing example of
universality in particularity.
the Calvin Prison Initiative. Calvin
University offers a five year program, bachelor's program in Hamlin State Prison for men in iia, Michigan.
And I've
gone there on a few occasions, to participate in a class that one of
the professors is teaching.
Each time, this has been among the most moving experiences of my entire life. Let me describe two aspects of it.my lament for a son had been assigned
and, the professor teacher mentioned to the students there that, he knew me and that I lived in Grand Rapids, which was 50 miles away.
So they said, well, why don't you try to get him to come to
join us
when we discuss his book? I did that first. 20 of them. They all had copies of the book lined up, wanted me to sign them, which I did. And then they said to me, I think all of 'em said, professor, how honored we are that you have come to our class now.
I have taught, and you've probably taught almost as long I've taught 45 years. Never before have I had the students in the class line up in advance and say, how honored professor we are that you have come to teach us. teacher introduced the book and then threw it out for discussion for 20 minutes.
I was completely baffled by what was going on. I suppose when this book gets assigned in an ordinary college classroom, the professor says some. some. Do you agree with what Professor Walter store said on page 53 or but
they would read a passage and then describe how they had murdered their wife, killed their best friend, and
so forth.
So eventually after 20, 30 minutes, I saw what was going on.
They were
treating my
words
as not my lament, but as their lament.for them.
They appropriated my words and at the end of it, one of them said, Nick, they called me Nick, not professor, which pleased me. Nick, before we read your book, we were in grief but didn't know how to express it. You have given us the words for that. We thank you. Marisol. That was the most moving response I've ever received to. Any presentation. The other thing was later a discussion on that second book that you mentioned, living with Grief,
I was
invited to participate. and so I joined them. and I that, well, I
talked about grief being assault on us. Something happens to us, and I said, you, you
here, you're grieving the fact that,You're
no longer free that you're, thatyou're bound here in prison. That's what's happened to you.
Several
of them raised
their hand
and said, no, we deserve to be locked up. For what we did. That's not the cause of our grief, that we're locked up, that we're deprived of our freedom.we're not grieving something that happened to us or that was done to us.
We are grieving what we did, we wreaked havoc on ourselves and on the victim and on the victim's family, and on our friends and our family. It's a grief that we brought onto ourselves the most astonishing, example of universality that I've had. Not an assault, but we brought it onto ourselves. Yeah.
Miroslav Volf: That, that's, that, that,
that is extraordinary. in many ways this ability. And even if they, presumably aware of the. of the. Inadequacies in the justice system,
and
how maybe they suffer partly under it, but yet at the same time, possibly they have a sense that there's
something
but bothers them more deeply is their own guilt, uh, rather than.what they violation that they might have
Nicholas Wolterstorff: Yeah, that's Yeah, that's exactly
right.
So Sowhen when they Talk to me to me privately and
in class you
learn about how they're demeaned. They're demeaned by the system. They're demeaned by the individual actions of guards and staff and so forth. And so they grieve over that. But still in that session, that was not the primary source of grief.
It was the grief
they had brought onto themselves.
Miroslav Volf: Yeah.recently I was reading, I think I was reading correspondence between,Abelard and Heloise,
and
then Heloise, writes in quotes actually.
Ambrose,
she can't quite sense in herself that she regrets their. Sin together.and then she quotes Ambrose, who says that he has seen more people who manage to live virtuous lives than those who do not.
But confess properly their own sins. So that repentance may be one of the,the very, uh, difficult spiritual things to do. And it struck me that, thatit, may be true. And so the,fact that these, inmates
are
able to recognize their own culpability is an extraordinary spiritual achievement.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: Um, no, no doubt there are
in People who insist that they're and so forth. I have no, but in these classes, I've never come across such a
person. they're always
unbelievably
old from them about what they did, the,
the
ruin that they reaped all over the place. Yeah.
Extraordinary. so you mentioned that. In, um, the living with
Miroslav Volf: grief,
you're more of a theoretician and obviously it's a very different book.
But
even in that,in that book, you push against the idea of the Odyssey, um, bus side more. Carl Bart's notion
of
of
Nicholas Wolterstorff: Yep.
Miroslav Volf: which somehow cannot be integrated into the larger picture of the world.
Can you speak a little bit about your resistance, to the Odyssey and, what you find so particularly helpful with Carl Bart's notion of the,
sneak
or nothing.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: So originally it was just a,resistance.I mean, as I said, the psychology of
of grief and, and now the, abstract discussion of grief and evil and so forth, I just couldn't take it because I had the sense of it's all distracting me from Eric and my love of Eric and so forth.
But eventually I began to, um, so the thees that I know. I will say that there's some greater good, in what hap in everything that happens in this world and what what
Calvin says, for example, is that tragedies, such as I experienced with Eric's death teaches us or is meant to teach us patience that we'll become. A better person that I will become a better person and maybe I have become a better person. But I want to say, what about Eric? He died at 25 Miroslav. When I read scripture, what a theme theme out all the time is God desire that human beings flourish until full of years and Eric flourished, but not until full of years. the classical picture that somehow everything is going okay. Some writers use the image of, of music and a Bach fugue. There's dissonance. So if you just listen to the, a certain dissonant passage, you'd say horror. Stop it. Stop it. But it all fits
together and so
forth. I couldn't believe that. And so reading Bart.
Nothing,
that there's something in that, there's something in the world which defies God's will mysteriously. We don't understand why how, but that God is working to defeat it and will eventually
defeat it.
I think Bart was capturing a deep theme in scripture where, where,where you get the sense of of a battle going on.
It
was, for me personally, enormously helpful that no, Eric's death is not part of some lovely grand design. something mysterious has gone wrong. Children should not die at 25 years of age. Nobody should die at 25 years of age. it was, it was Carl Bart who. articulated my sort of gut.
Miroslav Volf: And so maybe
that's a different
way.
In which the wound of grief remains open.because theodicy, somehow
there's
something about it that, that almost wants
to
close it, that wants to turn it into something that it is not.and if you have it, the, that's kind of an absurd moment,or element in God's creation that leaves, space for
grief
Nicholas Wolterstorff: yep.
That
was exactly my experience. NowBart dis discusses this at excessive length as he discusses most things at excessive
length,
but nonetheless, in, um, living with grief there, I have interludes, a couple of interludes and one of them what to say to a person in grief. And one of the things I mentioned there is don't try to console 'em. Don't try to say things are not really so bad. Um,you still have four other children, he's better off now. Um,please don't do
that.
Consolation is
not, It's awful. What happened is awful. Don't tell me. It's not really, it was, I remember remember there were two people who said, well, you still have four children, right? Ouch. a child is it's a marble, but you can, and you,five of 'em from Woolworths and then you've still got four left and no.
Miroslav Volf: Maybe
if we can also
return, um,
briefly to the question of,Alleged
excessive love for worldly
Nicholas Wolterstorff: Yes.
Miroslav Volf: that is expressed in, that disclaim to be expressed
in
grief, a certain kind of distance, ability to take whatever is worldly and throw it off any moment as a light cloak.
I think Ki Guard uses this,this idea, and somehow. The love of God for God and love for the
world's the
goods. Is seen as being in this tension with one another because you don't love enough. God. Do you attend to the worldly goods because you attend to the world legal goods, you're too attached to them rather than,uh, being with God.
How do, how do you see the relationship between these two loves? Both of which, we are commanded to, To actually have, uh, love for God and love for our neighbor.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: So
of course it's possible
to
love to be attached too much to earthly things.
Well, it's
probably true of all of us and in some respects that fellow I mentioned who was grieving over the collision of his car
felt felt shame about that
and he,found himself in grief was at the same time you said, I'm ashamed of it.
And, um, yeah, you shouldn't be casted into grief over the. Crash of a Ford or a Chevy.but I think when Jesus citing the Old
Testament
says, love your neighbor. is saying, saying, seek the
good of your neighbor. Attach yourself. And what's unsaid is that this is going to cause you grief. Ancient stoics, ancient Roman stoics coped with all this by saying, don't attach yourself to anything. Don't attach yourself to your children.
Don't attach yourself to anything, your wife, your spouse, then you won't be casted into grief. One of them, somebody said to one of the ancient stoics,
remarked about how his son had died and he wasn't grieving. The ancient stoic was reported to have said, but I always knew he would die. Ooh, a cold, icy comment. So Esof, I hold this mysterious interpretation of the scripture that
the love
of God requires that we love our fellow human beings. Why? Because they have dignity.
They bear
the image of God. They are lovable.
That
bears the risk of grief in this world of wars. That's a strange love that you won't along the way be casted grief, but that's how I live. live.
Miroslav Volf: toward the end of, lament for the Sun, you're right.
Love
in our world
is
suffering love. Some do not suffer much though, for they do not love much. Suffering is for the loving. If I hadn't loved him, there wouldn't be this Agony in commanding us to love God invites us
to suffer.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: That's my experience. It can, when you think about it it it can be utterly bewildering. of course I suppose there's some attraction to the stoic strategy. Don't attach yourself. But it was good that I loved Eric. It was worth it. So my grief is worthwhile. Yep. And this world, love and suffering come together.
Miroslav Volf: This is a deep wisdom that we often resist,
Nicholas Wolterstorff: Yep.
Miroslav Volf: but thank you for articulating it so well,
in both of these books
and. Thank you, Marial. It's been
Nicholas Wolterstorff: a, I was gonna say, it's been a pleasure. it's not a pleasure to
talk
about such painful, deep things, but it's. wonderful. Thanks very much.
Miroslav Volf: you so
much. you so much.
Nicholas Wolterstorff: We're grateful to Nicholas Wolterstorff for joining Miroslav Volf in this episode
Evan Rosa: Noah Senthil provided editorial production assistance. I'm Evan Rosa, and I edit and produce the show.
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